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Breech clout question
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Okwaho
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 215

Real Name: Tom Patton

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward, I don't believe you read my post all that carefully.My main point was that there are two issues here. First is the question as to the historical dimensions of early [17th,18th,and early 19th century}breechclouts.I will agree with the statements that these dimensions varied depending on the source of the garment or the wool from which it was constructed. I will agree that some information can be gotten from paintings and other pictoral evidence but there is always the question of artistic license and proportion.I believe Ken Hamilton has done quite a bit of research into this matter and I defer to him here. What I was trying to get across is that ours is an evolving hobby much as Native clothing was evolving. What is a good length and width for me or others with similar girths is quite different from a Mohawk warrior in 1750.A good example of the gradual widening and lemgthening of breechclouts is the dimensions of the breechclouts worn by the young Pow Wow dancers in their wild abandoned movements. There is no question but that breechclouts have gotten wider and to a degree longer in the 19th and 20th centuries.I would love to wear a 60" by 10" breechclout as was sold by Ken Wagner and in fact I bought one and still have it.I just don't have the nerve to wear it except to wear it to sleep in.

It is one thing to wear faithful copies of 18th century moccasins, leggings, and silver BUT it is quite another thing for me at least to wear an 18th century breechclout with a width of 9-10 inches.Like it or not we do our reenacting in the 21st century in front of 21st century spectators and that's the point I was trying to get across.
Tom Patton

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attheeasterndoor
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,
I completely understand your point, as I was illustrating the same only with a different avenue of approach. I know Ken as well as you on the research end of things and agree that things are evolving. But to compare Pow Wow garb, to which most is complete fantasy based on an infancy period when the use of traditional clothing, and eagle feathers were outlawed for some time. Fast-forward to the boarding school days of kids inventing the fancy dance as a replacement for the lack of "traditional regalia" and basing their clothing on thoughts and memories. Not solid documentation, as this was a means of rediscovery of the past in very simple terms. Therefor a modern pow wow breech clout can be compared to the gorget that evolved from the medieval breast plate offering form and function, up to the 18th century crescent gorget which offers nothing more than a decorative symbol of rank.

I think that the true issue is the imposition of 21st century moral dress code standards on 18th century Native clothing and the modern reenactors being uncomfortable with the later due to MODERN personal convictions.

If someone wants to wear a larger clout in the interest of personal modesty, that's fine, no problem with me. (doesn't mean it's correct)

But my overall point is that my personal conviction, is giving the most accurate portrayal of a 18th century Native warrior as is humanly and physically possible. We are in the position we are in to educate the public and cater to their desire for knowledge, not the whims of some prude in the crowd that goes..."Oh My.....is he?.....I don't kn.o..w?...Oh my!...BTW what are you wearing under that?........REALLY? giggle giggle"

How many of us have heard that one over the prudish Gasp! of horror? LOL

These folks need be more concerned about the way their kids dress in high school than how WE dress at an 18th century event.

If they don't like it.....Let's see them...in their infinite wisdom do a better job................We'd be sorry for sure.


Part rant, part statement, all fact.
Love ya Tom :)
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Michael Galban
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Iroquoia
Real Name: Michael Galban

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But to compare Pow Wow garb, to which most is complete fantasy based on an infancy period when the use of traditional clothing, and eagle feathers were outlawed for some time. Fast-forward to the boarding school days of kids inventing the fancy dance as a replacement for the lack of "traditional regalia" and basing their clothing on thoughts and memories. Not solid documentation, as this was a means of rediscovery of the past in very simple terms.


Ward - My good friend. I must rush to the defense of modern Pow-wow culture. The Modern pow-wow is as valid a Native American practice as the Sundance, potlatch, or at the wood's edge ceremony. A culture defines what is tradiutional not researchers. If the dance evolves from old time grass dance and Hethuksa societies then it does so despite conservative distain. Some people seem to look down on flourescent feathers and Bustle Centers made from CD's. I don't. It's a part of the reality of my people. I pound the earth on occasion and do so in modern regalia. Does it lessen the cultural value? Not in the least.
More later - gotta get to work.

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pichou
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attheeasterndoor wrote:
How many of us have heard that one over the prudish Gasp! of horror? LOL


From their perspective, it is the Gap of Horror. LOL!

I do sometimes bash Pow Wow culture, but not for the same reasons... I understand and revere the dream behind it, but I think a renewal is possible, where the different nations reclaim lost traditions, clothing styles, language, etc., and bring that to share at Pow Wow, instead of continuing on in the same Hollywood costume rut. There is some revival, but so much more is possible.
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attheeasterndoor
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ward - My good friend. I must rush to the defense of modern Pow-wow culture. The Modern pow-wow is as valid a Native American practice as the Sundance, potlatch, or at the wood's edge ceremony. A culture defines what is tradiutional not researchers. If the dance evolves from old time grass dance and Hethuksa societies then it does so despite conservative distain. Some people seem to look down on flourescent feathers and Bustle Centers made from CD's. I don't. It's a part of the reality of my people. I pound the earth on occasion and do so in modern regalia. Does it lessen the cultural value? Not in the least.
More later - gotta get to work.


Mike, I'm not attempting the lessening the cultural value in the least. (Not my intention at all) Just an attempt at illustrating the evolution of regalia. (breech clouts) Although being around a few powwows, you have to admit there is a lot of "If they had it they would have used it" LOL. Which is kind of the exception to the rule looking at archaeological material, because what they had they used and we've both seen some really odd stuff :)

BTW. I hate not having emoticons on this board.
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 256

Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Galban wrote:
Quote:
But to compare Pow Wow garb, to which most is complete fantasy based on an infancy period when the use of traditional clothing, and eagle feathers were outlawed for some time. Fast-forward to the boarding school days of kids inventing the fancy dance as a replacement for the lack of "traditional regalia" and basing their clothing on thoughts and memories. Not solid documentation, as this was a means of rediscovery of the past in very simple terms.


Ward - My good friend. I must rush to the defense of modern Pow-wow culture. The Modern pow-wow is as valid a Native American practice as the Sundance, potlatch, or at the wood's edge ceremony. A culture defines what is tradiutional not researchers. If the dance evolves from old time grass dance and Hethuksa societies then it does so despite conservative distain. Some people seem to look down on flourescent feathers and Bustle Centers made from CD's. I don't. It's a part of the reality of my people. I pound the earth on occasion and do so in modern regalia. Does it lessen the cultural value? Not in the least.
More later - gotta get to work.


two thumbs up on that post .Michael
I would also point out that as far as traditional gear at Powwows , Michael has it right .
I would also point out that these dances are often a mix of culture and many folks adapt parts and pieces from others . Its still traditional ;o)

as to the breech cloth . i would add that the differences are also a mix of cultures
Eastern sizes are different then western . Lengths are also different among different peoples even during the same time period . So it is not a one size fits all type of item . its a who and when
frankly im to big to have some of the smaller sizes fit me.
really its more of a case of me going :O( then others
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attheeasterndoor
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This went from color, to appropriate size, to wooded hamlet clouts, to blake's clout's, to a basic overview of style drift, to what? Again, no attack on the traditional values of modern powwow. None.
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Michael Galban
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Iroquoia
Real Name: Michael Galban

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you Ward. Hard to post without emoticons. No offense taken at all.

Back to breechclouts - don't you think some of the known early examples are HUGE? Not comparable to the tiny little ones seen so often in images.

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"I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn't work. I felt pretty good while I was blowing that bubble, but as soon as the gum lost its flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."
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attheeasterndoor
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you and I both have seen the Caldwell clout etc. So what are the actual dimensions? Considering that this was possibly made for a white guy, lining and all, would this represent the norm?
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pichou
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

on a slight tangent... a lot of early artwork shows what looks like diapers, or some kind of wrap you might see in INDIA. A few (some Iroquois, for example) show kilt-like clothing. Is there ANY real basis for these, or are the artists dressing their subjects up as a idealized Natural Man/Cherub?

Back on topic...

I have seen a couple of lists that give a number of yards of stroud, and how many gift clouts were supposed to be made from that. IIRC, there were 3 to the yard, i.e. 12 inches by 54 inches.
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nogoshe chobee
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Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 29
Location: florida
Real Name: mike manzano

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: BREECH CLOUTS Reply with quote

RIGHT NOW AT THE ATHATHIKI MUSEUM , THERE ARE SEVERAL CLOUTS THAT VARY FROM 12 TO 18 INCHES WIDE. THRE'S EVEN A FEWW THAT BELONGED TO OSCEOLA, HIS WAS ON THE SMALLISH SIDE DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE WASNT A LARGE MAN BY 21 CENTURY SWED STANDARDS. THE FACT THAT THESE TRIANGULAR SHAPED CLOUT VARIED IN SIZE SEEMED TO BE UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. AS TO THE QUESTION OF "PRUDISH" 21ST CEN MORAYS, I THINK IF THE SIZE OF THE CLOUT GETS IN THE WAY OF EDUCATION THE IT UP TO THE LIVING HISTORIAN TO DEFINE HIS GOALS. NOW IF YOURE IN THE WOOD DOING A TREK .....
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nogoshe chobee
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Real Name: mike manzano

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: BREECH CLOUTS Reply with quote

RIGHT NOW AT THE ATHATHIKI MUSEUM , THERE ARE SEVERAL CLOUTS THAT VARY FROM 12 TO 18 INCHES WIDE. THERE'S EVEN A FEW THAT BELONGED TO OSCEOLA, HIS WAS ON THE SMALLISH SIDE DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE WASNT A LARGE MAN BY 21 CENTURY SWED STANDARDS. THE FACT THAT THESE TRIANGULAR SHAPED CLOUT VARIED IN SIZE SEEMED TO BE UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. AS TO THE QUESTION OF "PRUDISH" 21ST CEN MORAYS, I THINK IF THE SIZE OF THE CLOUT GETS IN THE WAY OF EDUCATION THE IT UP TO THE LIVING HISTORIAN TO DEFINE HIS GOALS. NOW IF YOURE IN THE WOOD DOING A TREK .....
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Ed...Maurer....
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My clouts--the best seem to have been linen--were 9 - 10" wide and came to mid-thigh. A good way to judge length--it has a lot to do with how much butt it has to cover--is to don your clout and run through the woods and brush with it. You'll know if it's too long!
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tqoqwej
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Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 11
Location: gloucester ma.
Real Name: bruce atkins

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: BREECHCLOTH Reply with quote

i'm looking for info on them too
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Ed...Maurer....
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nogoshe, explain the triangular-shaped clout. Is it the overall shape, or the ends of the clout?
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