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Double Ball Loads

 
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Bigfoot
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Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 77
Location: Upstate New York
Real Name: Jonathan Steffan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject: Double Ball Loads Reply with quote

I have read reference to double ball loads in Champlain's writings (loaded in his arquesbus) and in reference to southern "buck and ball" during the US Civil War, and in The Life and Adventures of Nat Foster (later period);
does anyone have any recent experience in using double ball loads?

I am particularly interested in trying it in a smoothbore 62. Loads, patches, ball diameters, etc. I don't want to blow anything up.

Any help?
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bob miller
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 133
Location: Sharbot Lake,Ontario
Real Name: Bob Miller

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Velocity will be a lot less, recoil will be a lot more. Accuracy..?
Why would you want to? What would you use it for?
Having said that, I've tried it. I read about it, so wanted to try it. IMO,it's not worth the trouble. If one .62 ball won't do it, you need a lot bigger gun!!!!
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Bigfoot
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Joined: 21 Dec 2009
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Location: Upstate New York
Real Name: Jonathan Steffan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Double ball loads Reply with quote

I am interested in the historical aspect; Champlain used it agains massed indians, Nat Foster used it to shoot one protagonist.

I shoot and have shot muzzleloaders from .32 to .75, from flinters to in-lines. I am a proponent of moderate loads in the right gun for the right game, etc. I am fully aware of the adequacy of the .62 round ball, having taken a few deer with it.

I am always interested in the subject of firearms and their use, and am looking for loading information from those who have tried double ball loads.
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Cutler
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Joined: 15 May 2007
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Real Name: Dennis Miles

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several years ago my practical joking shooting buddy, with the help of my Wife double balled my .62 tulle at a trade gun match when I was distracted. I let fly on the iron popup ground hog, it went down without prejudice, hard. I thought I had busted my wrist and it did leave a small crack in the wrist of my gunn where the barrel tang was inletted into it. I wasn't a happy camper.
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bob miller
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Location: Sharbot Lake,Ontario
Real Name: Bob Miller

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used 80 gr FFg and 2 balls, powder,wad,ball,patched ball. My barrel was a Colerain, [ relatively heavy breach ]. Some of the smoothbore .62 barrels I've seen are 1 in at the breach, and then there are the ones made of tubing; so use your own judgement. I prefer the buck and ball loads, ie 3 buckshot and the 1 patched ball.
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Loyalist Dave
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Joined: 21 Aug 2008
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Real Name: David Woolsey

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've goofed around a bit with them, but as most of the contests that I have been in specified single ball only, and as it's illegal in my state to use buckshot, or a double ball, when hunting, I haven't really had a reason to mess with it.

LD

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trent/OH
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Joined: 02 Jul 2009
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Location: Southwest Ohio
Real Name: Trent Wren

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tinkered with a double ball load in a .32 rifle. It seems to work better if I put a buffer between the 2 balls. (I stumbled on that concept by double loading the rifle...Oops!) It didn't produce accuracy, but it did put twice as many shots downrange in twice the amount of time.
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Francois Labiche
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Joined: 16 May 2007
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Location: Western shore of the Mississippi below St Louis
Real Name: Al Puknat

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In My .62 smoothie I have on occasion double balled on paper targets if the challange was to put as many holes in it as possible in a given time. Kicks a bit more, but not bad. About the same as 'Buck and Ball' does.

Most shooting matches outlaw the use of more than one projectile at a time though.

As a single .600 ball will pass completely through a deer end for end, I have never seen the need to double ball on a hunt. I never hunted BEAR though.... I might just consider it then.

TRY IT. EXPERIMENT. That is half the fun.
F.

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Francois Labiche
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Location: Western shore of the Mississippi below St Louis
Real Name: Al Puknat

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern day Buck and ball:
http://hosted.vresp.com/287072/8285f93c7f/1274006389/52a4f2a50a/

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nogoshe chobee
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Joined: 14 May 2008
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Location: florida
Real Name: mike manzano

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:14 am    Post subject: buck n ball Reply with quote

there is a tradition here in Florida that stems from the Seminole Wars of buck n ball use by the U.S. army during engagements against the Native people here. But it carried over to the hunt of dangerous game (bear,large hogs, people). It was used in smooth bores and later in the early1800's double balls in rifles. BUT it was ALWYS used in close quarters. (50 yds or less). IT WORKS!
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Belleville
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Joined: 21 May 2007
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Location: Oyo
Real Name: Doc Shaffer

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall reading that double balling dangerously increases the pressure, so I would not do it.

Doc S.
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Loyalist Dave
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Real Name: David Woolsey

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe yes, maybe no, it depends on the powder load used and the barrel. For example, my .530, 225 grain round ball would be 450 grains if I did a double ball, which is within the parameters of the weights of the T/C Maxi-hunter conicals sold for .54 caliber rifles.

Whether double ball "works" I don't think is in dispute. For larger dangerous game, the idea (I beleive) is to put twice the trauma into the nevous system of the game animal at the same time. So, really you'd want a gun that would toss the bullets 2-4 inches apart at about 50 yards. Hence the reason buckshot actually works... multiple trauma points.

Probably none of the hunters of that era knew about the physics or medicine of what was going on..., they just saw it worked better, and my hypothesis is that it did so by delivering a double wound with slight separation. (I was told by a neurologist that wounds need to be a few inches apart, or the nervous system reacts to them as a single wound - hence the hypothesis) There are some drawbacks however...,


When you launch (for example) a conical of 450 grains the entire mass has a combined inertia in flight, and less overall surface area than double ball..., so actually delivers more energy on impact. When you launch two 225 grain round ball projectiles, both have their own surface area, which is greater than the conical, AND both have less mass, so they shed velocity quicker than the single bullet, and as they are not accelerating to the same velocity as a single ball (unless increases the powder charge by a great amount), they then are delivering less energy on impact.

WHY is "energy at impact" important?..., well it is one of several factors that determine the damage done on the target, and less energy = less potential damage. Both also have more friction upon impact, and thus slow down faster within the animal, and if launched with too little speed, might not do sufficient damage to immediately put the animal down.

AH, but in favor of the two ball load (and probably why it was favored in some parts of the country - iirc "loaded for bear" in some places meant just that) as long as both projectiles reach the target with sufficient energy to do the job, the rest doesn't really matter. Dead is dead and if all that is needed is X energy, twice that doesn't mean the animal goes down twice as fast. The double load could give the hunter twice the damage. As the previous post pointed out, at fifty yards or less..., thus giving enough energy to do the job. Is it an advantage...?..., well perhaps on dangerous game it's more like "insurance". One might consider why were so many "African" rifles made as doubles? Perhaps for the same reason.

Is it an advantage over a non-dangerous game animal? Probably not. Dead is dead, and a single projectile does quite well. Has done for centuries. =D

LD

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bigdeutscher
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Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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Real Name: Todd Beckmeyer

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Buck N Ball Reply with quote

When you have to kill it
Buck-n-Ball ....it just works
Deutsch

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