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Short guns Stutzen vs Canoe Gun myth
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CT03
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Joined: 14 Oct 2009
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Location: Arlington, VA
Real Name: Christopher Treichel

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Short guns Stutzen vs Canoe Gun myth Reply with quote

Not that I am a fan of short guns, but I keep finding these Stutzen/ Stuetzen guns in European auction houses... Most being highly decorated and probably not something the average chap went running arround in the woods with.

Perhaps this is where that idea of the canoe gun came from.... has anyone ever found one that was over in the Colonies?




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Mike Brooks
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
has anyone ever found one that was over in the Colonies

The Hessians carried them in the Rev war.
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Wahkahchim
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Real Name: Peter Andresen

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: I have seen them in museums. Reply with quote

Hi all....

I have seen "canoe gun' type carbines in museums but they all seem to be either built from parts which included a very used or damaged barrel which had been shortened after an injury to the muzzle, or a military carbine which passed into civilian use. I've never seen a "canoe gun" which was obviously made as a carbine. My thought...which is just a guess, since I wasn't there 200 years ago and i'm not really a scholar....is that these were salvage guns, second guns, house guns, not primary guns to be used for the field or for intentional primary use. "Better than a pistol but not as good as a full-length shoulder gun" would describe my thoughts. Most are parts guns and the parts were well-used to the point of physical wear and sometimes obsolete before assembly into the gun in the museum. The Jaeger and Swedish snaplock rifles are an anomaly and primarily European in design. Another interesting aspect of this was that a length of barrel doesn't seem to ever have been wasted: if the broken barrel was shortened, the unuseable part was immediately recycled into a hide scraper or a fireplace poker. I have seen 17th Century barrels reused as fireplace pokers and bellows funnels in both Massachussetts and Virginia. They didn't waste a thing. Just my thoughts.

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Poor Devil
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Location: Yuma, AZ. Via Chula Vista, CA Soon WA.!
Real Name: Pat Hillock

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: canoe gun Reply with quote

I agree. My understanding of the name "Canoe Gun", is that the company that first started making them, was approched by a customer who wanted a short gun he could ...."load from a canoe".....The maker made it for him and thought the name catchy.....so do I. I have had my 20" BBL 16ga canoe gun for about a month and find it very handy, light and easy to use. At the time I bought it, I also ordered a 36"BBL 24ga trade gun. I like it very well, but the little one just speaks to me! It is fast becoming my favorte.

p
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Jackie Brown
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Short guns Stutzen vs Canoe Gun myth Reply with quote

Christopher,
I think your topic "canoe gun myth" is very accurate. LOL To my knowledge, the "canoe gun" term was born in my shop about 20 years ago because I had a good supply of short barrels. I started offering full stock guns with 18 to 24 inch barrels as my "canoe gun". About the same time, Northstar West did the same thing. Who knows who was first with the name, who cares? But, it did start a good bread and butter gun for a gunmaker. And, a lot of shooters found out, a short barreled gun shoots surprisingly well.

I am having really good success with short barreled smoothbores in the 28-32 inch barrel length calling it, my Transitional jaeger, barn gun, European Boar gun, or poor boy. Sometimes I do a bit of incise carving, put on a sliding wood patchbox with a jaeger shaped stock and it's my Transitional gun (somewhere between the German Jaeger and an American longrifle). On others, I leave off the buttplate and install a sliding wood patchbox and I have a dressed up for Sunday dinner barn gun. Sometimes, just a lock, stock, and barrel poorboy but all with a 28-32 inch barrel.

As once was said of me on this board, I never let period correctness stand in the way of building a gun. I stopped taking life too serious after a brain hemmorhage several years ago. Some have asked if I had any residual problems and I tell them I talk to myself and scratch my butt in public but come to think of it, I did that before I got sick. LOL I'm just ramblin' and having a good time.

Jackie
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Art Sitter
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Joined: 24 May 2007
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Real Name: Art Sitter

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Short guns Reply with quote

I remember a story about Curly's "canoe" gun told many years ago. Seems that when Curly of Northstar brought his first canoe gun to Friendship, someone asked him to shoot it from the hip. Curly loaded it pretty stout, braced it against his leg and touched her off. Bam, instant charlie horse to his leg. Did it kick much people would ask? No, not at all Curly replied so of course others wanted to check this out. So Curly would it up for em (stout or stouter load as before), the unsuspecting would let her rip, suffer the inevitable soe leg and return the wepon to Curly for the next unsuspecting victim. Does it kick they,d ask, no barely felt it ,theyd all reply and prest, another cripple. From the way I heard the tale there were many a folk limping around Frienship that year, all sportin their bruise from Curly's canoe gun. Just a recollection from the past!
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CT03
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Real Name: Christopher Treichel

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beim Stutzen (oder, je nach regionaler Mundart, auch: Stutzer) handelt es sich um ein vergleichsweise kurzes, besonders handliches Jagdgewehr mit gezogenem Lauf (also eine Büchse). Der Stutzen ist typisch für den süddeutschen/alpenländischen Raum

Translated from the German...

The Stutzen (or also in regional dialec called Stutzer) deals with a both short and handy hunting gun with rifling (therefore a rifle). Der Stutzen is typical for the Southern German / Alpine Area.

The above example is from about 1750 only about 26 inches long and in 13mm caliber. The same auction had another matched set of stutzen from 1780 about 30 inches long and also in 13mm caliber overal.

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Wahkahchim
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Real Name: Peter Andresen

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: One more reason to enjoy short barreled guns..... Reply with quote

One reason I think people enjoy short-barrelled guns is that they can fit sideways into a car or a trunk. One challenge with the longer barreled shooters is that they can't fit easily into a car without dropping the rear seat. In my XTerra the Pedersoli Jaeger and my Nathan Stephenson "Canoe Gun" both fit easily sideways, so they go on more informal trips. But they aren't necessarily the best guns, they just travel more easily.

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Jackie Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:11 am    Post subject: Canoe gun Reply with quote

Peter,
You nailed it!
Jackie
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Okwaho
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Real Name: Tom Patton

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Short guns Stutzen vs Canoe Gun myth Reply with quote

Jackie Brown wrote:
Christopher,
I think your topic "canoe gun myth" is very accurate. LOL To my knowledge, the "canoe gun" term was born in my shop about 20 years ago because I had a good supply of short barrels. I started offering full stock guns with 18 to 24 inch barrels as my "canoe gun". About the same time, Northstar West did the same thing. Who knows who was first with the name, who cares? But, it did start a good bread and butter gun for a gunmaker. And, a lot of shooters found out, a short barreled gun shoots surprisingly well.

I am having really good success with short barreled smoothbores in the 28-32 inch barrel length calling it, my Transitional jaeger, barn gun, European Boar gun, or poor boy. Sometimes I do a bit of incise carving, put on a sliding wood patchbox with a jaeger shaped stock and it's my Transitional gun (somewhere between the German Jaeger and an American longrifle). On others, I leave off the buttplate and install a sliding wood patchbox and I have a dressed up for Sunday dinner barn gun. Sometimes, just a lock, stock, and barrel poorboy but all with a 28-32 inch barrel.

As once was said of me on this board, I never let period correctness stand in the way of building a gun. I stopped taking life too serious after a brain hemmorhage several years ago. Some have asked if I had any residual problems and I tell them I talk to myself and scratch my butt in public but come to think of it, I did that before I got sick. LOL I'm just ramblin' and having a good time.

Jackie


Jackie, Good post- you left out the "blanket gun"but what the hell you can't be perfct.Otherwise you pretty well covered all the bases.As to canoe and blanket guns, I have given up trying to educate where these Carolina/Type G guns are concerned.Given the large numbers of Carolina guns shipped over and the correspondingly large number of makers it should be no surprise that they vary widely in many aspects of construction and appearance and that the archaeological material should be so divergent in appearance and type.

A seasoned collectorof early French guns once told me that if the French were in any way consistent with their guns it was their inconsistency.I am beginning to believe that this theory applies equally to the Carolina guns.
Tom Patton

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Wahkahchim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: More info please? Reply with quote

Tom and Jackie could you enlighten me? Are there lots of type G's in the historical record? Thanks.

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Mike Brooks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: More info please? Reply with quote

Wahkahchim wrote:
Tom and Jackie could you enlighten me? Are there lots of type G's in the historical record? Thanks.

Literally thousands. Probably the most common gun in the south east and beyond.
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Okwaho
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Real Name: Tom Patton

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: More info please? Reply with quote

Mike Brooks wrote:
Wahkahchim wrote:
Tom and Jackie could you enlighten me? Are there lots of type G's in the historical record? Thanks.

Literally thousands. Probably the most common gun in the south east and beyond.


Mike is right here but it should also be noted that the term "Type G"{English} like Types C and D {French} is archaelogical only and dates to 1968 when T.M. Hamilton wrote "Early Indian Trade Guns:1625-1775" wherein he listed Types A-R with only two examples of complete guns {one of which was a Carolina gun} which he referred to as "collector guns" I do have one solid reference to the term "Carolina guns" from the 1730-1740 period in York County,Va. thanks to Lee Burke who brought that term to our attention.

I believe that these Carolina/Type G guns probably began to be shipped over Ca. 1699 when the English Board of Ordnance started buying them for distribution to Indians.{ see "British Board of Ordnance Small Arms Contractors 1689-1840" by by De Witt Bailey, Ph.D.} These guns were basically English fowlers of varying quality. A 1730-40 court record for estates and inventories in York County,Va.listed " 40 Carolina guns" valued at 22 pounds 10 shillings the lot or 11 shillings 4 pence each. The sale of these guns was,I'm sure, not limited to Indians since England enjoyed almost total dominance of the trade in fowling pieces throughout the 18th century prior to the revolution.This domination existed in the South and Southeast,areas where the English were dominant.See "Flintlock Fowlers" by Tom Grinslade on the scarcity of American made fowlers in this area.
Tom Patton

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Wahkahchim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What were the trade guns of the 1620-1675 era? Any idea where I could go for info on these? Thanks.

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Mike Brooks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wahkahchim wrote:
What were the trade guns of the 1620-1675 era? Any idea where I could go for info on these? Thanks.

Colonial Frontier guns by T.M. Hamilton. Leonard Day sells some appropriate guns for the period.
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