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Ethics of Native Reenacting
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Loyalist Dave
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Joined: 21 Aug 2008
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Real Name: David Woolsey

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Please don't attempt to interpret "religious" aspects of native culture at a reenactment. For us, these are still in current use so by 'reenacting' them it dilutes their meanings and many of us find it downright insulting.


Actually, isn't this true of any religion? I don't have a problem with an actual minister portraying himself as he would've been two centuries earlier. I have attended such worship services as they are actual services, but if you're not an ordained minister don't dress as such, or if not a priest, don't show up as a priest, or shaman, or any other such member of any spirituality for the above does apply..., these are still in current use, OK? Now there were and are lay-preachers, to which I am not objecting, just don't dress-and-play-the-part of that which required then and now official recognition. Does this make sense or am I too "sensitive"??

LD

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Capt. Jas.
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Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Real Name: James Rogers

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loyalist Dave wrote:
Quote:
Please don't attempt to interpret "religious" aspects of native culture at a reenactment. For us, these are still in current use so by 'reenacting' them it dilutes their meanings and many of us find it downright insulting.


Actually, isn't this true of any religion? I don't have a problem with an actual minister portraying himself as he would've been two centuries earlier. I have attended such worship services as they are actual services, but if you're not an ordained minister don't dress as such, or if not a priest, don't show up as a priest, or shaman, or any other such member of any spirituality for the above does apply..., these are still in current use, OK? Now there were and are lay-preachers, to which I am not objecting, just don't dress-and-play-the-part of that which required then and now official recognition. Does this make sense or am I too "sensitive"??

LD


Ordination is of man and not of God so I don't think that a pre-req. to portrayal of a minister in my mind. As a matter of fact, I reject it.
I would agree that you are most correct when you say "don't play the part" when it comes to matters of faith. If it is truly yours, no matter the color of your skin, etc. then OK. If you have to carry a card to have certain beliefs, I think that is overboard. The kingdom believing Jews did that to the early gentile Christians.

I have been insulted many times when others have diluted the meanings of my faith. In many cases it was those who were actually OF my faith.
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TiminIndiana
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Joined: 19 Dec 2009
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Real Name: Tim Wieneke

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were portraying a member of a tribe, I don't think it would be beyond reasonable to contact that tribe's current leadership and send them photos of my outfit and ask if my portrayal was accurate and respectful to their heritage and if they had any advice to offer.
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Loyalist Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ordination is of man and not of God so I don't think that a pre-req. to portrayal of a minister in my mind. As a matter of fact, I reject it.


While you may, it is not a question of whether or not a person rejects it, and perhaps you misunderstand..., what I am objecting to is playing the part of a minister from a faith that currently requires ordination as a prerequisite of a minister of that faith. Some faiths do not, and a lay preacher is also without ordination. As I pointed out, don't go around playing the part of a Catholic or C of E priest if you're not. (The Religious Society of Friends would be an example of where they do not require the mediation of official clergy.) It's not just limited to Native American spiritual traditions, but to any that would object. There should be no special "respectful exemption" for one set of beliefs..., if you would not play the part of an Indian Shaman when not being an actual shaman, you should not play the part of a Bhuddhist Monk, or Rabbi, or Priest, or Imam, if you are not.

LD

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Mario
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiminIndiana wrote:
If I were portraying a member of a tribe, I don't think it would be beyond reasonable to contact that tribe's current leadership and send them photos of my outfit and ask if my portrayal was accurate and respectful to their heritage and if they had any advice to offer.



Well, by that token I should send a picture of myself to the United Empire Loyalists (like our SAR/DAR) in Canada and ask if it's OK for me to portray a Loyalist.

Who should I send pics of my French Marine impression to?

Mario

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Bogie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: French Pics? Reply with quote

Mario,
Perhaps Carla Bruni ? She may respond with a few interesting ones of her.Alternatively,the famous Frenchman Pepe Lepeaux may be able to offer sanctions?
Bog
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Michael Galban
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points all. Religion is something better left to another forum. Which is why I try and steer clear of it when reenacting.

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Mario
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Real Name: Mario Doreste

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: French Pics? Reply with quote

Bogie wrote:
Mario,
.Alternatively,the famous Frenchman Pepe Lepeaux may be able to offer sanctions?


You have no clue how many T-shirt ideas you just helped stimulate...


Mario

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Luke MacGillie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being a Soldier in the modern world, I had to take an enlistment oath, one that was just as important to me, as a preacher that is ordained. But I dont get culo'd up about folks portraying soldiers that have never taken the same oath as me, why should it be any different for other professions?

Also, AFAIK, there has never been an Indian Shaman, but I hold out hope that some day, a NDN will head to Siberia, convert to their religion, and become a religious leader, just so I can say I know the only NDN shaman

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Loyalist Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Shaman" is not an anthropologic specific term, and is applied to spiritual persons of cultures in North America and South America which are sometimes referred to as "Indian". The word itself has etymology to Siberia, but is NOT specific to that region. See the Huichol/Waxaritari of Mexico, and all people of the Quechua language group.

Clergy is not a profession, it is a vocation in some religions, and THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

The point is NOT to select one religious group for respect, saying "we shouldn't reenact their religious ceremonies as there are still people who practice those beliefs who would be offended", while at the same time allowing folks to do the same and disrespect another religion, or worse, ridicule a religion. All religion should be afforded the same level of respect, is the point.

LD

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Fitzhugh Williams
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The clergy is a profession. Along with the law, medicine, and teaching. Those are the four.
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Luke MacGillie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loyalist Dave wrote:
"Shaman" is not an anthropologic specific term, and is applied to spiritual persons of cultures in North America and South America which are sometimes referred to as "Indian". The word itself has etymology to Siberia, but is NOT specific to that region. See the Huichol/Waxaritari of Mexico, and all people of the Quechua language group.

Clergy is not a profession, it is a vocation in some religions, and THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

The point is NOT to select one religious group for respect, saying "we shouldn't reenact their religious ceremonies as there are still people who practice those beliefs who would be offended", while at the same time allowing folks to do the same and disrespect another religion, or worse, ridicule a religion. All religion should be afforded the same level of respect, is the point.

LD


Well, I guess that's just part of the White Man's Burden, to have a bunch of non ordained folks portraying ministers of 200 years ago. Now where have I heard something like that complained about before, perhaps it was non BIA card folks portraying NDN's? ROFLMAO

Also, while not a spoksman for any Native community, as a key communicator between Euro's and NDN's, I can say that the viewpoint from inside Native America is that if your going to use something other than the actual Native language's word for a religious leader, it should simply be the english words, not an imported Asian word. Preacher/Pastor/Healer, not Shaman, Medicine Man ect. If we followed the supposed dictates of some Anthro department, it would perfectly OK to call someone a Episcopalian Iman...........

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TiminIndiana
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Real Name: Tim Wieneke

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mario wrote:
TiminIndiana wrote:
If I were portraying a member of a tribe, I don't think it would be beyond reasonable to contact that tribe's current leadership and send them photos of my outfit and ask if my portrayal was accurate and respectful to their heritage and if they had any advice to offer.



Well, by that token I should send a picture of myself to the United Empire Loyalists (like our SAR/DAR) in Canada and ask if it's OK for me to portray a Loyalist.

Who should I send pics of my French Marine impression to?

Mario


Mario,
The group you are referring to is a political or a military organization.

Tribes go far beyond beyond politics and you're going into the portrayal of someone's family. That's a whole different ballgame that requires a different level of respect. You wouldn't do blackface makeup to re-enact a early American african slave would you? My guess is that might offend a person or two. Show some respect to the tribes so you don't similarly offend their people. It's beyond their ideology. It's their people.

Tim
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Mario
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiminIndiana wrote:

Mario,
The group you are referring to is a political or a military organization.

Tribes go far beyond beyond politics and you're going into the portrayal of someone's family.



The UEL is neither. It is made up of the direct descendants of the men I portray.

In effect, they are a "tribe" and I am portraying their family.

Mario

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TiminIndiana
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Real Name: Tim Wieneke

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missed your response Mario. The loyalists you speak of may be direct descendants, but they are direct descendants of participants in a political group. The loyalists were about politics and a land grant payoff for maintaining political allegiance. It's not the same as a tribe. And look back to what I originally said. I never said a person should have to contact them for permission. I said it would be a good idea to contact them to see if your portrayal was accurate and respectful. Isn't that what we do here? Don't we go to sources to make sure we're doing it right?
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