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Discussion about "A Modest Proposal"
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David A. Schmid
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 168

Real Name: David A. Schmid

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: huzzah Reply with quote

Bravo....well said
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hungryjohn
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: A Modest Proposal Reply with quote

Well, that tears it for me!

You folks are just too dang caught up in your own idea of what's right and what ain't.

I'm nothing but a country boy that hunts and fishes the same way my ancesters did. I thought throwin in with you folks I might get a little help and encouragement along the way instead, I seen nothing but the opposite.

Naw. I think I'll just take myself back up to the high lonely where no-one puts you down for not being perfekt.
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David A. Schmid
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 168

Real Name: David A. Schmid

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: huh? Reply with quote

John....how did you get put down for trying as you read this article?? This article is a guide line to work buy..talk about getting a little help..this is a bunch of help! This isn't our idea, we take things written and documented from the past and apply them to our living history personas.

Alan is a great historian, well read and paid his dues researching. This is good stuff. Wish I had this article 31 yrs ago when I started.

Need help? just ask. We are all glad to help.
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rtn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 23

Real Name: Ronnie Nance

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hungeryjohn, well said. Stay with us, you will find that most of the people in this are here for the fun and some use it to be the big dog. They are right and every one else is wrong. These are the same people who use only part of the facts to prove how right they are. A painting of a noble does not show or prove what the common or lower class people used or how they dressed. These people ignore the writings of travelers who talk of the imodus dress of the back woods people. I read writings like the one above, take it for what it is, and go on. I don't run with people of the upper class, I don't make fun of a person trying his best, and I am not perfect. Nor am I impressed by their self imposed intelligence. If I pass muster with the people putting on the event I say the Bidget's of this game can go jump a post. But do remember one can always try to improve. I don't go to many events because of this type of thinking. I do attend both juried and non juried events. I see people who need to do better and wonder how they passes. If I stepped on any toes so be it. But remember who stepped first.
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raymond the younger
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very good, a wise guide to use.
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J Branson
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Victoria Texas
Real Name: Jim Branson

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey lazyJohn; got to agree with rtn AND you,I dont even do the 18th cent. deal but this IS a great place to learn and grow (with your persona)Just because some folks cant or wont remember how they began isnt a reason to give up on this! I sill remember How I started and thats been many a winter ago. Best way to put it;I was a Dan'l Boon and Davy Crockett fan club president! Now I know better,but also know that we need new folks who like to learn and expand their area of interest.,without the "do it the way I say NOW or I wont like you" attitude from the fellers that probably messed up worse than most

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May you be in heavan half an hour before the Devil knows your dead
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Frenchie
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Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Oklahoma
Real Name: Erick Noah

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Thomas,

In the first post by Mario, I would recommend that you read the last paragraph. Paraphrased, " Be the best with what you have the physical resourses & money for and most important HAVE FUN WITH IT !!!!!!! (Rule #12)

I portray different people in time periods from the F&I War through the 1870's. Is my gear 100% correct? I myself would say no way. I am I trying ? YES! This a very large time period to be 100% in every way.
Why do I do this? Because I have seen it makes people ask questions, starts conversations, people reveal information that they have on a subject, keeps me loooking to do a better job in my portrals & IT KEEPS YOUNG MEN & BOYS INTERESTED IN STAYING IN BOY SCOUTS !!!!!!!!

You stated that you hunt & fish much like your forefathers have done.
I would say that your are a lot further down the road, in your skills, than 50% of the people on the board, that includes me.

I can agree with what the first post has said, but, if I cannot or do not have the time, resources &/or money to do that, I will not let it spoil my enjoyment of the hobby.

My first B.P. Gun was a CVA Mountain Rifle, it cost me $150.00. Not P.C. by this boards standards. I sold it for $150.00 and bought a Lyman Great Plains for $150.00. The Lyman was closer to what the mountain man had as far as looks. It was what I could afford. I bought a CVA Blunder Buss for $100.00 and a Queen Ann flintlock pistol for $50.00. It is what I could afford. I use these two for when I portray F&I and Rev. War periods. Still not up to what most of these people have, It is the best I can afford right now. (I know with what I just posted that there are people who are going to get their drawers in a knott, about the "A" word. But it is the best I can do with the resorces & funds I have.)

I do tell people that my stuff is not 100% correct, but I do tell them that I am working on making it that way.

So, Mr. Thomas, do the best with what you have, you are more than welcome to PM me. I will not put you down and I will do my best to help you out. That is what the "Old Timers"would do for the "new ones". I believe the mountain men called them "Greenhorns" :)

Erick Noah

PS In FCF I am known as Frenchie. In Boy Scouts I am known as The Mountain Man. To the boys in my scout troop I am known as Mr. Noah.
To my wife I am her Darling and to my children I am their Dad & Daddy.
THE LAST TWO ARE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL!!!! :)

Mr Thomas, You have a blessed day!
________
Uhwh


Last edited by Frenchie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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The_Shadow
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, we can all live together, believe me.
Historical trekking is a great way to get more out of the scant time most of us have in the woods. Let us not forget that. The object of the game here is to enjoy your time on the trail, not give history lessons.
By definition, when you are on the trail you are either alone or with a small group of like-minded friends. You know what you are there for, and you get down to it. Let no one put any stumblingblock in your path, and don't feel judged by anyone. The woods will judge you by your skills and let me tell you, a sharp thunderstorm does not care a hoot if your gear is 100% period correct, it will rain on you no matter what you wear. The question is, can you handle it? With whatever your chosen gear is?
NOW...... if we are going to a Historical Reenactment then the rules change. You ARE judged by the accuracy of your portrayal, as well you should be. You ARE on notice to give a correct impression to the people you are teaching because that is what you are doing!
So, choose your venue, historical trekking or historical reenactment and act accordingly.
We are all striving to get better on both sides of the coin, let's help each other, what do you say?
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David A. Schmid
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 168

Real Name: David A. Schmid

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject: huh? Reply with quote

A bit confused...help me understand. You do 'historical' trekking but it isn't historical? Not a challenge..at all just trying to understand what you mean.

you do historical trekking....but it isn't a history lesson? We are walking in the paths of those of the past, to learn from them but your historical trek is only done half way with equipment that is not period correct?

If you don't care about the history part, then go out and go camping and enjoy the modern equipment that History has developed!

I do not see a difference in Historical Trekking and what we do at public events...it is all teaching. How can you do a public teaching event with out the lessons learn on the trail in a historical setting joined with historical research? And then practice that research on the trail.

The challenge is to wear their gear, learn their skills and survive that storm! Talk about understanding the past!

Historical trekking is that connection to the past that the journals only give you a taste of. Learn by doing it their way..completely.

Do not disdain the historians that share with you research, with out this research then trekking would just be a limited activity based upon myth not fact.

Not a challenge just an attempt to help you.
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The_Shadow
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, David, I certainly apprecate the help! And I in no way distain any historian, I admire them and learn from them. I have great respect for what they bring out, and I get ideas from them to use on the trail.
To me, the interest is in trying out the old ways and seeing how they work in the real world. What keeps me interested is the fact that a lot of what we have "forgotten" works better than what people commonly do today.
I have been to many reenactments, and will go to many more because I enjoy them. I have met MANY reenactors who are very knowledgable and give a great impression but do not (and don't want to) spend any time in the woods at all. It's just not their thing, and I respect that.
My thing is self sufficency, and the colonials had that in spades. Reading the old journals gets you into their heads and you see how they thought in order to make it through their lives. Cool stuff!
I have no problem with you seeing no difference between a weekend on the trail and a weekend at an event, we all have our own outlooks. I see the event as "dress parade" and the trek as "deployment", to use military terms. Hope you don't mind my way of thinking!
Anyway, one of my concerns is what about people who take a look at this whole thing and it looks interesting, but they don't have $4000 hanging around to buy a really top notch PC outfit. I think we should understand that it takes all kinds to make a world, and realize that it is OK if someone wants to go out with their RV and start by learning how to light a flint and steel fire. In the shadow of the popup trailer, he blows on the spark. It lights, and the fire is started. RIGHT AT THIS POINT he may say 'Hey, this is cool. Next time I'll try packing in" and the RV stays home. Then, he gets a muzzleloader and the 30-06 stays home. Then he starts to read history and who knows where it all will end for him. But if someone came up and laughed at him or marginalized him when he lit that first fire outside the RV, he might have bagged the whole thing and that would be that.
I care about history but I care about people more. I am more interested in testing myself as a woodsman than as a historian. Each of us is at a different point along this journey, but my contention is, we each have much to share and we each can learn volumes from each other. It isn't a question of what is better, it's all good.
David, thanks for the dialog!
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David A. Schmid
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 168

Real Name: David A. Schmid

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: understood! Reply with quote

I understand what you are saying..thanks for the positive feed back~sometimes an addition of different ideas causes strife~ too much strife going on of late in this modern world.

An interesting point and I have noticed this through research. For example...A British Grenadier of 1777, recruited from London or Liverpool, has no woodskills what so ever. He knows possibly a trade or not and the army is his only means of income. Someone in the 21st C is out there is reenacting those grenadiers. So as a reenactor, would you display woodskills and be true to your persona? No. You may or may not do historical trekking on the side but your persona does not have these skills.

A Militiaman from Conrad Weiser's Berks County Militia circ 1755, had wood skills, was recruited from rural areas where he was exposed to the wilds and had to suffer through Indian attacks etc. He has wood skills, in my persona of a militiaman I demonstrate the woodskills I have learned through historical trekking~ lol read my latest article in OTT for survival!~
So my persona that I demo at public events and school presentations can share with the crowd the skills I learned. This offeres a great insite!

so looking at these two reenactor types...some pick a Grenadier some a militiaman, is one better than another? Maybe...in certain situations. For example, in Battle when you need a solid block of highly trained Grenadiers to fire load after load of lead at an enemy and to have them fix bayonets and charge the enemy off the field and butcher them? Give me Regiments of Grenadiers! Militia in this situation could do the following in that situation~ run, fight but not as effectively due to lack of training or crap his pants. If you really want to win~ as a General..which would you have?

As a hunting partner you would pick the militiaman hands down.. right?

So at reenactment we all play a role, some have woods skills some don't..I do sometimes suspect that the persona picks the man and the man does not pick the persona.

We are all needed to help complete the picture of history to the crowds, out trek skill add to that just as much as the lack of woodskills does for the Grenadier. Too much Myth thanks to Disney and poor research or lack of research has been a bother for us all. Research is key to success! We have to learn somehow.

So John and others...ask your questions...learn from us as we can learn from you. We all complete the puzzle of the mysteries of the past.
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Pathfinder Ted
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 162
Location: Beautiful Tip of Michigans Thumb!
Real Name: Ted Jayson

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the very reason I limit my attending "Re-enactments",I'll go to a shoot over the "re-enactment any day. Have witnessed too many times someone telling a new guy"this ain't right,that ain't right and so on,untill we no longer see that new guy again. If someone wants to hold their event at a museum,and tout that event as as accruate as humanlly possable,I applaude their efforts,as a spectator. I'm in this game for the last rule..HAVE FUN!
I've been doin' this for thirty of the 55 years I've roamed this planet,and it has been a blast! Now that I'm getting older and arthritis is really taking a toll on this old fart,I do make concessions in my gear that I hunt and shoot with. Most of it would past muster,just not all in the same time frame. It's now a blend of time periods that work for me.
I hate to see new folks disscouraged because they arne't historiclly documentable. If we could keep the two factions seperate'I don't see where there would be any problem.
Before we attend an event,we know whats expected,we've read the hand out and talked to folks and made plans,so I feel this is almost a tempest in a tea pot.
I promised myself that I would no longer get involved in these disscusions,I've gotten in "trouble" before so this is the last I'll say.If we run across each other in the feild or at a shoot,I'll feed ya from my folding skillet,let ya borrow my bullet board and give ya a warm capote if yer cold. ALWAYS HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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If you don't like the way the founding fathers formed this country,Thank God they insured you have the right to leave, NOTHING NEEDS CHANGING!
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virginiaregiment
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Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 80
Location: Virginia
Real Name: Jim Mullins

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mario,
thanks for posting the "Proposal"- Great stuff, words to (re) live by!
JM
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Tim Camarda
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mario--Good post, good reading.

I've asked this before, but for the life of me I can't understand why wanting/trying to be as accurate as possible can't be fun at the same time? There is no reason anyone "just starting out" (or anyone at any level really) has to spend anywhere close to $4000 on anything. Just read a little bit and seek out folks that have done some reading too, and go from there. If you're into it, and want to do it on the cheap, it can be done. I guarantee that you could buy enough linen to make a set of good clothes, that will last, for under $100. You just have to take the time to learn how they were made in the period, take your time, and put them together yourself. I DEFINITELY have never had anywhere close to $4000 to spend on this stuff. I like sewing, learned the basics, and started making stuff. The more you do it, the better you'll get. It's like anything else.

No doubt there are jacka***s in this hobby that have bad attitudes. But have you all really been berated that many times by supposed thread counters? In the 15+ years I've been involved in this nonsense I can't say I've witnessed anyone blatantly telling anyone "you suck" or "your stuff sucks" and "don't come back till you look just like us." Maybe those folks are out there, but just ignore them.

The book reading, time in the out-of-doors, talking with others, making stuff, etc are all supposed to be part of the same package, aren't they? It's a hobby, anyone can make of it what they want. Fun and/or enjoyment should be the ultimate goal, I just don't get why the intellectual/research part is apparently looked down upon by seemingly so many folks. Helloooo...if you never read anything, how would you have any basis for what you do on those "treks?" Do you just make it up? Is it based on movies you've seen?

I've been is swamps up to my waist, freezing cold, tired, hungry, shot my gun live, hot almost to the point of it becoming medical, etc all in 18th century clothes with 18th century equipment. But somehow, I also get just as much of a rush from looking at stuff in museums, reading period info, making stuff, etc. I thought that's what the hobby was all about? All of this stuff combined. Guess I was confused. Didn't realize there were "factions" or that it's best to keep them separate.

Folks are free to do as they please. But don't claim that those who are into reading, studying/copying original stuff, and trying to get as close as they can are snobs, while at the same time acting as if your rambo-like woodsiness is superior and more inclusive than others. The same argument against "thread counting snobs" could be made about you. (I only mean to single out an attitude, not any one individual) Hope I didn't offend any of the "country boys."

-Tim
(who was born and raised on 35 acres of woods)
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trg11
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 188

Real Name: Gene Stebbins

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You folks are just too dang caught up in your own idea of what's right and what ain't"

Nothing could be farther from the truth, it has nothing to do with whatwe or anybody thinks is right or wrong but a journey toward what was done, worn, used by following the evidence left by those who came before us and there is no rule that says one muct play the game to the highest level there is room for every one, understanding the guidlines above is just a convienient sources of a structure and order method of getting where you want to go.
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