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Singer
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the distance involved here Capt Chee? (for the trail)
Is this done on "club" grounds, or out in the woods?

Just trying to get a grasp on how much room we would need to do this kind of shoot.

I love the shoots we have at Smoky Hollow, but something like this would be over the top!!! Be interesting if the expert paper punchers would shoot...
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well we have done events that take up alot of land and we have done events that take up no land
Our smallest situation that evolved LIVE shooting has been done on just a couple acres. But with these we have a proper layout with back stops for the lanes of fire .
Range for shooting can be close if you donít have the room buy making the targets that would normally be at longer distances smaller . All of our targets for the property we use locally which is about 3 acres long, running down the river and only about ĺ of an acre wide , are shots under 30 yards . Our property is heavily over grown and brushy so once on the trail , your in the woods even though you within shouting distance from camp .
The targets we use there for live fire range from large 18X18 targets ď gem, meís ď to targets as small as the thickness of playing cards , straws and golf balls .
The thing though again is always safety first so if you chose to plan things out always have 3 or 4 people walk through after setting up the situation . Have them tell you any safety concerns they have and take those into account .

The smallest situation walk I have ever been involved in , took place right in camp around the fire .
This played out very much like the old Dungeon and dragon game .
It actually worked out real well . The situation walk committee put a lot of work into it , making It very enjoyable even though it did not evolve shooting , That event was a captive rescue.

They had done up a large period map of the subject area and used more modern Topo maps for finer details . Part of the course was map reading and learning to use a compass in its more modern applications . They incorporated into this searches , tracking , different signs, even ambushes that folks had to react to .
This type of set up though takes a person with a vivid imagination who can relate that to those sitting around participating , thus stimulating their imagination to the point that the event plays off in their own heads .
As I recall , that event covered a 15 day time frame but in real life took about 3 hours .

As such there were time where we had to make camp . Part of that was fire starts which were actually done . We had to find our location on maps using compasses both modern and period . so azmiths had to be taken, ploted and such .
While we couldnt fire weapons , we did simulate that by describing the loading procedure and then charging the pan and then flashing that pan .
Tracking was done by describing what we were locking for and where .
It really was a well put together event and it taught a lot of very good information both period as well as applications used today .

So as far as how much land is needed , thatís only dictated by how much you want to do and what you want to include .
Obviously a large area where folks can actually walk , feel, see and shoot , is desirable but its not a necessity .

Its all in the set up and how its run . If your situation is done right in camp then you need to include a lot of hands on tasks that can be done there as well as have items available that will help the person put themselves into your situation .

some of these play out very much like some of the board games or video games seen today . Imagine if you will playing Total War but having a period map, folks dressed in period clothing . runners bring in messages and field reports . maybe even soldiers with wounds reporting the situation from the field .
the tent is filled with candle light and pipe smoke all being played out in a period setting .
It becomes very easy for a person to suddenly find themselves placed at an event som 150-200 back yet never leaving the tent

Our military still today plays these situation out very much the same way and is often part of the an NCO or Officers training courses . Whole large scale theater battles are played out often times in rooms no bigger then a bunker . In these troops are deployed , units engaged , artillery and air support. Defined and .applied . Everything from . Communications both by radio and runner , supply , evacuation of casualties . Losses of combat efficiency do to those casualties , deployments of special weapons and units , Retreats and advancements of units .
Everything basically is done without ever leaving that room and played out on a map .
I can tell you that the realism found in such training can get very high emotionally and its not uncommon to find folks freezing up , becoming indecisive and losing their ability to lead or plan .

One of my most memorable situations like this was i was part of a situation based on the battle of Bull Run .
Each of us were assigned a given units as Corp commanders with objectives , following the orders of an un seen general . It truly was an experience and it all played out on a map tacked to a wood table out under a canvas tarp .
I left that situation completely drained and thought for days about decisions I had made and if given the chance what I would do differently .

so there is alot of things one can do , its all in your ability to give the people involved a realizim and make them thing past what they normaly do .
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captchee
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Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what i have found about paper shooters is that they are often not good at hitting real targets where they have to chose their point of aim .
myself i dont like paper. if i want to shoot paper , i can do it at the local range our out behind my home . basically i look for events that will give me somewhat of a realistic experience .
i donít know about you folks but i have never seen a deer or for that mater an enemy that had a bullís-eye , painted on them .
IMO paper is good for sighting in your rifle or proving accuracy for group or POI .
To often at events paper is used to equal out the scoring . Nothing Pi$%ís me of more to walk a trail walk and hit every steel target but then find out that while I had some rounds outside the 10X on the paper , I still lost to someone who missed half the targets on the walk but was able to put all his rounds center on the paper thatís at a set yardage , at a flat angle and placed clear as day .
To me this is useless .
If your going to use paper , keep it as an event on its on merit and in a historical context . Do not combined the scores unless its for an overall aggregate
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Singer
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the wargames, and the stress and strain of a "static" games. I retired from the Army (23 years). Last duty assignment was Chief of smoke for an artillery battery (155mm sp). Always liked the Big stuff like "Team Spirit" or "Reforger". Pushing paper is fine , BUT the actual logistics of moving large scale units really, really adds to the "friction".

You've given us allot to think about here!!!! Wisconsin.... hmmmm allot of scenarios could be made. What happend to LoTW? Figured she would be in on this discussion turned uberthread LOL. Heck, I have the whole Northern Kettle Morrain State forest a few Minutes away! Tons of trails...
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Lady of the Woods
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Indiana
Real Name: Suzanne Dennis

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:11 pm    Post subject: love reading looking for ideas for shoots Reply with quote

OHHH man, you wont believe this; i spent about an hour writing up a whole post Tuesday night and I changed the subject to "shoot senerios" or something similar and some how it's gone. ?? Clearly I've run amok or is that a muck. so I guess you can't change the subject name and stay with in the forum??anyway.

DITTO on the paper thing. so far none of my deer have had a bullseye painted on. BUT I will say that shooting/competing monthly has improved not only my accuracy for hunting, but my patience, and certainly tracking skills. I've been hunting/competing with my 50 TC for the past 5 years and have been very pleased with the results of both.
Back to that divorce thing for 1 moment - It just occured to me that all my deer is back at "his" house! I'll have to fix that! The other thing about that subject is I was hoping to invest in a custom made rifle this winter but unfortunately expenses are up/ savings are down. Love my Renegade, but It's a capper and probably not up to the high standards of reenactor professionals. I bought a lovely 50 lyman great plains rifle a few years ago, so I could learn a flint lock, but the darn thing is WAY toooo heavy for my weenie arms. I can shoot the thing accurately about 4 shots after that I start getting shaky. I had some interest from someone to trade a tent for it- that might work out. we'll see.

so, due to my error Tuesday night ya'll missed my explaination of beer traps, tavern shoots and a tent shoot. I'ts too late tonight, funny little thing called work tomorrow, but maybe saturday i'll find a couple pictures and post them and explain.

Saw several discussions I'd like to get into; "womens clothing" for one. OH, you can bet I have an opinion on THAT! Also on paper punchers, but too tired tonight.
Zan
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Singer
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HEHHEH I started with a .50 TC renegade, got it at a rummage for 100.00. Still my favorite "meat" gun. This year I invested in a Pedersolli frontier rifle ,50 flinter... haven't shot it yet. still trying to figure out the books in french/german/italian/ and oh yes english.

My folks picked up a .58 TC (st louis?)rifle from a guy in a bar for 100.00, with all the trimmings!(christmas for me this year) Kinda itching to try that one out too! I managed to get a doe with my .44 cap and ball revolver this year (man, that one will live in my memory forever)

Read the great posts by Capt Chee!!!!!
I need to do some tribal hair research too!!!!

Hmmm Wi. scenarios... Blackhawks' war....Pontiacs' rebellion...Wyandots invade S.E. Wi.!!!
Now to get a scenario past the paperpushers at the club LOL

Waiting for the Thaw... I NEED A TREK!!!!
Rodgers Rangers carried cut down flinters... there's an option for a lighter weapon
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Joined: 15 May 2007
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Location: Greenville, SC
Real Name: Fitzhugh Williams

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Singer wrote:

Rodgers Rangers carried cut down flinters... there's an option for a lighter weapon


British Long Land Pattern guns with the barrels cut down from 46" to 42". Really not very light at all.
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Singer
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the "jaeger" style guns were not that light?
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Lady of the Woods
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Indiana
Real Name: Suzanne Dennis

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: love reading looking for ideas for shoots Reply with quote

I am also very interested in Jaeger style rifles. I have an excellent book I would recommend to anyone: "Jaeger Rifles, Collected Articles Published in Muzzle Blasts" by George Shumway. Copywrite 2003. There are fantastic pictures (though they are black and white) and the articles are very interesting.

There is an article about a Johann Neyreiter rifle made in Salzburg between 1710 and 1725, to quote: "This is not a small gun. It weighs 11 pounds and the barrel measures a whopping 1 7/16 inches across the flats at the breech. In spite of the size the balance point of the piece is right where the left hand goes, if held in Germanic style, with the left elbow down and against the left side. Thus, the weight of the piece tends to disappear when held for shooting."

Beautiful rifle. So here is my question (i am full of them). How likely or possible that a native american (in todays midwest) who partipated in the trade industry would or could have such a rifle?
This is the syle of rifle I was hoping to have made this winter, so would I have to completely change my persona to accomodate the rifle (I would have to become a German gentleman on the great hunt, I guess?) Or can I continue to be a resourceful native?

I understand the difference between the exception and the rule, however I do think there is a bit of room for the possibility that a beautiful rifle such as this would have been or could have been "aquired" by whatever means.

As I said in an earlier thread the shortened Bess is a possibility that is in fact documented, but certainly not common. My issue is when "we" talk in absolutes. I think there remains the possibility that exceptions occured.
just a thought.
zan
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Singer
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posed the Jaeger comment in regard to the Rogers Rangers carrying cut down "pattern guns", which were not that light. Sketchbook for Rogers Rangers also has them carrying "Jaeger" style rifles which were shorter yet. and which were probably privately owned guns. A resourcful native should be able to "procure", a fine rifle such as this !! Why wouldn't they? In battle, the spoils of war go to the victor...
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 388
Location: Greenville, SC
Real Name: Fitzhugh Williams

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guns which were cut down were Long Land Pattern muskets with barrels of 46". Barrel sections of from 2 to 4 inches were found in the archaeological context which means that the "cut down" muskets would have had barrels of 42 to 44 inches. Probably they were cut down due to damage to the end of the barrels. As to Jaegers, I have not heard of them being used in a military context until the American Revolution when they were in the hands of Germanic troupes in British service. The Ted Springs sketchbooks are good for a few laughs, but that's about all. Indians would have used trade guns supplied to them by either the British or French. They are well documented.
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captchee
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Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with fitz here . rifles are lacking pretty much for native documentation tell pretty late into the 18th century and beginning of the 19 century .
Most common would be the different trade guns both French and British or refurbished guns of trade from the English .
Smooth bore were more utilitarian in their use . The NW guns also stayed in the HB inventory for Native trade tell just into the early 20th century because of this . Imo a Yager would be greatly out of place in native hands . Those that fell into our hands would most likely have been traded off or gotten rid of pretty quickly .
There are some accounts of military weapons like the Bess and charletvills in native hands but those that do come to mind are descriptions of weapons left on the battle field .
These were most likely from military stores and supplied weapons not traded for weapons . Im sure some would have maybe been picked up after a battle or during it but again IMO they would have been traded off quickly when a better suited weapon became available
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Lady of the Woods
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Indiana
Real Name: Suzanne Dennis

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: love reading looking for ideas for shoots Reply with quote

hmm, much as I hate it, I am sure ya'll are right. I'm looking for a way to justify what I want, not being realistic. What'd somebody call it: "reenactorism?" Probably true.

Ok, so I have weenie arms (previously mentioned regarding the Lyman for sale). Any suggestions on a rifle? I'd like to have a 50cal, since that is my current caliber and that's what I have all the accutrements for. Oh, and I don't have much money. I know that my rifle will probably be my largest expense and I'm willing to save up, but I'd like to start planning. Bonus time is just around the corner at work (I hope!).But I also have to get a new tent, if I don't work out the tent/Lyman trade.
Zan
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captchee
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Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well. MMMMMm ?
Lots of things to consider when looking for a rifle .
Is it to be historically correct or is it just to be an everyday usable rifle with nno real concern for correctness .
Most all production rifles on the market today IMO are
1) not correct : ďthe Lyman GPR is the closest of all of them IMO ď
2) they are way over built and heavy most times not having good balance

Some designs are naturally this away especially the plains rifles even the historically correct ones. Hey are naturally heavy in the hang and sometimes difficult for a lighter framed person to use because of this .

I have built a couple rifles for women that are very small . My wife is one as she is only 4ft 5. Her rifle is a 50 cal , full stock rifle using a scaled down Fussil fin stock which I added a silver nose cap to . Over all the balance is correct . She says its much lighter then her friends wood stocked traditions deer hunter or the Traditions hawkens woodsman she used to have which by the way is much lighter then the Lyman GPR
Another I built was for a local lady that is about 5,5 but is maybe 100lbs max .
Her rifle is a 36 cal and also a full stock and while the balance is also correct , its a little heavier then my wifeís 50 do to the heavier barrel that I used . However because the balance is correct she has no problems holding and shooting the rifle .

Now on the NON PC side you have the little Bob cats made by CVA .
I have done a number of restocks on these rifles to get rid of the plastic stocks .
All of these I have done were for women and they make a nice little rifle . Their main draw back is the locks , which are most time functional but also trouble some at times and its best to replace them with a quality lock especially if converting one to flintlock .

The other thing to keep in mind is that production rifles are build to an average .
What this means is they have an average draw , most times no cast off and are built for men , not women. Now some times this works ok depending on a womenís build .

But when building a rifle for a women , its best to take into account issues that men simply do not have . If you donít , you may find the rifle uncomfortable to shoot .

Now custom gun wise , the sky is the limit . You should be able to get into a completed quality rifle basic 50 cal rifle with a medium to low figured stock for 8-900 and up ,in either percussion or flintlock . One could even if they wanted barrel something like a NW trade gun with a rifled barrel . It wouldnít be historically correct but it would provide you with the correct stock lines , the right caliber your looking for , be about the cheapest and still give you the venue of having shorter lengths of staying correct even down to 30 inch barrel lengths.
If your interested in something , shoot me a PM and we can go over some different options , hash over some numbers and see what kind of prices we can come up with .

Here is some of the rifles and restocks I have done as of late for folks . some on a budget others NOT . the point is that in the custom market you can get what your looking for

CVA bob cats "RESTOCKED"





Old CVA Kentucky restock


English fowler


Fusil fin


youth NW gun , 45 smooth bore


J Armstrong




double flint SXS english . 20 gage /62 cal


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Singer
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful arms there Capt. Chee!!!
So where does my pedersolli .50 flint frontier rifle fit in? Is it PC? It has the same lines as your armstrong.(but without the fancys!! BTW Gorgeous gun!!!)
What about T/C hawkens, other than as you point out, they are overbuilt, but are they still PC?
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