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If complaints about Jackie Brown offend you, don't read this
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Jackie Brown
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Walnut, Mississippi
Real Name: Jackie Brown

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning and a happy Monday to all! I was just looking at the number of visits to the different posts and one thing is clear. We love guns and controversy. I guess we're pretty much normal after all. Huh? Have a great day everybody.
Jackie
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Jackie Brown
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Walnut, Mississippi
Real Name: Jackie Brown

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I hold the record for most views of one thread. WOW I'm impressed with my bad self! LOL Have a great day, Fellers.
Jackie
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Black Hand
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 132

Real Name: Albert Grobe

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackie Brown wrote:
I think I hold the record for most views of one thread. WOW I'm impressed with my bad self! LOL Have a great day, Fellers.
Jackie


You must be proud.......
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Jackie Brown
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Walnut, Mississippi
Real Name: Jackie Brown

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just have a wierd sense of humor! And I wonder about the deep subjects in life such as, why is a blackberry red when it's green? Be happy!
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stormcatcher
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: caustic thread Reply with quote

i think my thread would have beat yours if i hadnt put it to bed.sometimes enough is enough.good luck jackie,
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Captain Ray
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: What about Bondo? Reply with quote

Back in 2002 I bought a carolina poor boy fowler from Jackie Brown as my first smokepole. Looked great, felt wonderful, carried well, but never was reliable.

After two months of re-enacting and never firing a live load the stock cracked in the area of the tang. which confused the heck out of me cause it hardly ever fired. turns out the vent was too far forward to be rather ineffective. I missed many a Redcoat because of that. My fellow militia members learned a great many cuss words that were preceeded by "click" flash, ^&*(%%#.

I contacted the builder and was quoted a price of half the gun to re-stock it. No way was I going to do that.

I found a gun maker who took the gun and upon inspection found that when it was built; too much wood had been removed around the lock and tang area....purely sloppy work that had been remedied by the gun designer applying car bondo to the lock area and placing the lock into it so there would be some mass.

Needless to say I had my friend re-stock the gun, tune up the lock, reposition the vent with a chambers liner, take the octogon to round barrel into a transition of 16 flats and remove Jackie Brown off the barrel.

He has had my business ever since. I now have a jaeger, a mountain rifle, and 1st model bess.

My gun making friend still has that old Jackie Brown Stock hanging up in his shop; sort of a tribute to what corners you do not cut.

My lesson is to reward those who make their income off quality not quanity.
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David Brown
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Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 78
Location: The Old Southwest-backwoods Cherokee country
Real Name: David Brown

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bondo!!!!! BONDO?????

Vendors who have these personality disorders need to be in therapy, not in business.

The rules seem to be: stall, prevaricate, lie, make excuses, stop communicating, never apologize, and NEVER NEVER EVER make a refund. The amounts in question, although substantial to the poor customer, are not enough to be significant even in magistrate court. So you have the customer's money and he or she's at your mercy.

As I have said: CAVEAT EMPTOR. Be warned and take note. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

_________________
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I believe I'll have a beer.
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Jackie Brown
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Walnut, Mississippi
Real Name: Jackie Brown

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Bondo????????? Reply with quote

I'll have to admit, that bondo thing is a novel idea! Mr. Ray, I'm sorry your stock cracked but I didn't fix it with bondo. LOL In 2002, I had 4 full time employees and they didn't use bondo either. We make a practice of bedding the breech and tang area with acraglas or epoxy to keep recoil from kicking out the "thumb nail" behind the tang. I don't think bondo will work.

Sometime during the 2002 time period, a Mr. Ray, but I'm sure it wasn't you, was it?, called and talked to one of my employees and said he had left his gun outside his tent over night and someone tripped over it and broke it. When he was told we didn't warranty that kind of breakage, he called back and told me it just broke by itself. I have restocked many guns that cracked for what ever reason and I am sure I would have restocked yours also. I'm sorry if you were wronged. But bondo, you've got to be kidding.
Jackie
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 256

Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohhhh come on bondo ?!!!!! do you really think any smith , well know or other wise would do such a thing and then put thier name on it ? LMAO
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Ironbear
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geeez can you guys get off a guy a guy screws up a few times and what i can tell he tried to fix it every time and you guys keep on his back. take it off board. i've got a jb gun finished by larry williams and love it.
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Captain Ray
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going into a war of words, I just wanted it written that there are shortcuts taken by some gunmakers who care about the bottom line and not the quality of the gun.

Yeah I did call you but I never left my firelock outside of a tent, no one ever tripped over it, or was it abused in any fashion. The stock between the pan back to the wrist cracked. You said that you would restock the gun for approximately 2/3 of what I paid. ( where I screwed up is that I must have bought a "return" or second that you had in the shop; I wasn't advised that but the gun came faster than a spec built gun sould have taken) I declined because that is unreasonable for a weapon less than two months old.

I would like to thank you for your attempt to turn this around and call me misleading and unethical by saying I tried to call and get the gun repaired after calling. How's that defense of your quality control working out? Many repeat customers? Staffing from four to one in the shop indicates something.

On the issue of Bondo, I know what bedding materials are; and I know what was put into the gun was not bedding material. It's a "coral" to pink color porous yet very hard material.....anyways it should not be there; never existed in the 1700's, 1800's or in any firelock that I have seen made by anyone else. I have been to the CLA show for four years now and not one bit of epoxy graced their doors.

Trust me, my issues with the gunmaker have been taken off the board....whenever someone asks me about a new firelock, I let them know what I found out.

Jackie I am sure you are a great guy, loudest voice in your church choir, friend of everyone, and do care about history because you want people out there doing it; but I wont buy from you again and I believe in truth in advertising.
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AxelP
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Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Yosemite
Real Name: Ken Prather

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its kinda hard to determine who did what fix and when on a used gun... Also kinda hard to get to the truuth in any of these good gun/bad gunbuild storys. no offense intended to either party.

I avoid controversy...seems to keep me from trouble. So I research a builder and if he/she seems relatively free of shinannigans, I order from them. I have had good experiences most times---No one is perfect and we are all just trying to pursue peace and happiness here, right? Everyone has the right to do business with who he/she wishes and suffer the consequences or rewards thereof. The details and who is right or wrong are not as important as the trend of such message strings. Honesty and reputation are hard won and easily lost. Sad. but true. I try and walk careful and not tarnish any man's reputation lightly. And I make sure my reputation is a true one--as much as I can. Knowledge is good and can keep a person out of trouble sometimes.

Best wishes to all involved and I hope folks can learn and grow from the reading, so the same story will not grace this board again.
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Jackie Brown
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Walnut, Mississippi
Real Name: Jackie Brown

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Ray,
I didn't say that it was you that called and said his friend fell over his gun in the night and broke it. I said "a Mr. Ray" called and I asked if that was you. I guess not! I do not remember any specifics of your gun. I only know I didn't slop bondo into a lock mortice. I don't know if your gun was a trade in to me or not. No idea! I'm sorry it broke. I also feel that I didn't quote an unreasonable price to restock it if I felt it wasn't my fault. My average price to restock a gun is around 300.00. If that's too much, try it.

As for going from four employees to one, yep, I had a reason. And, it was mighty entertaining. I had the four employees until June of 2003. One day, I got to feeling a bit strange (stranger than usual). LOL Next thing I knew, I'm in a Medivac helicopter with a brain hemmorhage. Stayed in the hospital a while and was off work for two months. Recovery went ok and people asked me if I had any lingering problems with it. I said, now, I talk to myself and scratch my privates in public. Then I remembered I did that before I got sick so I guess I'm ok. LOL My employees had to eat so they had to get other jobs while I was unable to work.

Now, a lesson in economics. When you take deposits on jobs to be done and are unable for months to work, people get impatient as we all do and just decide to cancel orders. That means "I want my money back". They have every right for refunds. Money going out instead of money coming in means very limited parts purchasing power and you get "bottlenecked" Jug choked is another good term. I know I'll get lots of advice on business operations and it's appreciated but not needed. Mr. Ray, if your gun fell into this time frame, I'm sorry.

Lighten up, fellers, and maybe, just maybe, you won't have a brain hemmorhage from the hypertension you're causing yourself.

No, mr. Ray, I'm not a friend to all, I don't sing in the choir(although I go to church every service), and I'm not a lonely voice crying in the wilderness. Heck, life is good, I'm making restitutions as I can when needed, I'm 58 years old and got a baby girl due in a month, and try to look at the big picture that says: #1. Don't sweat the small stuff. #2. It's all small stuff. Call me and I'll make things right with you if I can.

Jackie
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 256

Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no way to know what is truth and what is not in this thread , to believe anybody would be to take someone’s word . So there for what you are asking is that we take your word of your problem over Jackie’s word , I simply will not do that . That doesn’t mean your not telling the whole truth or that Jackie isn’t .
There are parts though that I will again say , frankly do not make since .

BUT
lets see if we can get alittle info and understanding from this thread .
You are most certainly correct Bondo did not exist in the 18 or 19 century and in fact not for much of the 20th century . It also is not very hard , and structurally week . Its designed to be a light filler and even in body work “ which I also have done a lot of “ its should never be used in high stress areas or in areas requiring to deep of a fill . The less the better .

There are many reasons a stock will spit where you say yours did .
The area behind the lock to the sear hole and back through the wrist are the weakest points of any muzzleloading gun . Most times a good builder will leave as much wood as possible here , taking only out whats needed to clear the workings of the lock and triggers . But remember in this area you not only have the area of the lock inlet but also the sear hole , tang depth , and trigger area . + if your gun is correct the trigger will be pinned in place . Thus you have another hole drilled through the stock here .
Now add another hole for the tang bolt coming right through this whole area to the trigger or visa versa .

Now even today there is no way to ensure that the grain of the wood is stable, in the wood, that’s left in these areas past looking at how the grain runs through these areas on the surface. This in no way however tells you what its doing inside, your taking an educated guess

Now if you have even a 1/32 of gap between the breech and the stock , firing even light recoil re-enacting loads can result in a small crack starting .
Basically the breech wants to come on back in doing so I wedges the tang area and starts the crack .
That crack will work its way down following the weakest gain .
Now each time you load lose powder and thump the but stock on the ground to settle it , your spreading the crack or at the very least flexing the material in the weakest part of the stock .
This is one of the very reasons the back action locks lost favor . They inherently take more wood from this already very weak area .
Stock cracking from the locks, tang or wrist is nothing new to modern gunsmiths . IF anything IMO the problem happens less because of the added use of Acra-Glas.
Now is the use of that product period correct ? LMAO No its not , however neither is the use of cast springs , modern steel barrels or the many , many other items we use in smithing OR that shooters and re-enactors put down their barrels today .

So if someone out there has a way to tell the internal stability of a natural material like wood 100% of the time , im listening . As would im sure , if they could many of the masters of old im sure because I have seem many , many of their works with cracked stocks as well . Many being repaired with big brass pins , plates .
if anyone would like i can show you a very High grade Manton that has been repaired in this very area

So now if you take all of the above into account and add a weight reduction , you know why modern laminated or synthetic stock have become so common . While they may not look as nice “IMO”
They also do not have many of the inherent problems associated with a natural, solid piece of wood .
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Jim H
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Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Andalusia, Alabama
Real Name: Jim Hallford

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update...still no refund as of today, 27 Sept 07.

_________________
Ask an American Indian what uncontrolled immigration did to his way of life. Then, think about your children and grandchildren.
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