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How to shoot a flintlock.... an interesting video.
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Francois Labiche
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Western shore of the Mississippi below St Louis
Real Name: Al Puknat

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUT it does not make it SAFE!

It maybe how it was done.... I have done it myself using BLANKS but I never pulled the rammer. It is not safe to close the pan before loading.
I have had accidental discharges with an empty pan whilst I was changing a flint.... I closed the pan to check alignment and the cock slipped an fell. Fourtunately the muzzle was pointed down range...a good habit.

If the hammer fell as he was ramming cartridge home, it would be a big ouchy.

I have seen horns explode when left on a bench along side a flashhole when the owner was shooting.... but not hanging by ones side.
I have witnessed a man blow his gaiter off once too... he left horn unplugged, keeled to start a fire. When he kenlt, the horn tilted and poured powder into his gaiter... before anyone could stop him, he hit the striker with flint and POOF - ouch big burn.

Yeah, putting the plug back in is a good habit, but i have been guilt6y of leaving it out when rushed in a timed event. So far....I have been lucky.

F.

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Labiche -un amant de femmes et de cognac
"Toujours ramer vrai"
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 256

Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are alot of things that were done and as said doesnít make it safe .
how meny 50 grain powder measures can you document from the frountier ?

how it was done ? as i said , i understand WHY he is doing it ., but i submit if loading from the horn is unsafe " which i believe it is ". then this practice is even more dangerous

i remember when it was common to see new folks with flintlocks napping a flint and dropping the cock on a dry pan to check the spark after getting a clatch .

if you have a main charge and one of those sparks hits the flash hole it will go off. I have seen it happen and have learned it first hand . I have heard some say that the chances are as much as 1 in 10 .

Lets also not forget self priming locks . Wonder why you donít see those around ?
Simple . As you load , powder from the main charge is loaded directly to the pan .
Now as you seat the ball or short column, IF the sear on you lock trips , you now have a ramrod as well as lead and hot gasses , going through you hand , up past your face .
Things happen when you donít expect them to.
Locks come to half cock without full engaging . Tumblers let go for no reason after years of use .
sears suddenly fail

What the video again you will notice , his last shot , he wasnít ready . His bess going of early .

While I agree and again I understand that this is how a paper cartridge is loaded . HOWEVER . IMO loading right from the horn while also never acceptable is a whole lot safer in so many ways then what that fella is doing

i wonder if the British ever did any documentation on how many injuries accrued on the battle field do to accidental discharge . Seems to me there would be quite a few
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coloneltubbs
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Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Houston, Texas
Real Name: Jerry Tubbs

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: HOW TO SHOOT Reply with quote

Did no one notice that when he loaded from the horn that after ramming the ball he threw the ramrod down on the ground? Good way to disable your weapon.

Colonel Tubbs
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Medicine Soldier
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Black Hills of SD
Real Name: Mark Kirchgesler

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed the ramrod toss only after watching it again after reading the comments regarding the video that are posted on youtube. Didn't notice the first time because I was too concerned with my computer monitor exploding from the open horn. Take a look at the comments for some entertainment. I checked them again today and one was just added that is the first regarding the safety issues. The new comment is

"Please do not follow his example as he makes multiple safety violations that could get you hurt. Do not leave the stopper out of the horn,do not load from the horn a flash can blow it up,do not put your hand over the muzzle.I've shot flint for more than 30 years and hate to see folks pass along dangerous habits. Sorry to preach but I'm a doctor who's seen serious injuries from folks making his mistakes. It would be a lot more entertaining if he shot a rammer through his hand"

It is interesting that it didn't show up until after the postings on this site....could the commentor also be a trekker and went there from here. Thanks to qcpidoc for his additon there.

Medicine Soldier
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captchee
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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Real Name: charles starks

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donít mean to sound argumentative here but could someone please tell me how you load without putting a hand over the muzzle ?
If your barrel is coned you still have to have you thumb over the muzzle .
If you use a short starter your hand is over the muzzle .
If you use a loading block , your hand is over the muzzle .
on top of all of the above
When you use your ramrod , your hand is over the muzzle

Am I just missing something here ?

i mean really are we all not missing something here ?

Ok so the first fella has some a couple safety problems but so does the second.

If we accept the loading from a paper cartridge with a primed pan because thatís the way it was done , then we also have to accept loading from the horn under the same pretences .

Hands over the muzzle ? Both are guilty

First guy left his horn un plugged during a video demonstration
However the second fella is flailing his muzzle all around by the third shot , defiantly not safe .
IE he is rushing the load and being careless as well . To the point his rifle goes off before he is ready to the point the recoil causes him to take a couple steps back .
On top of that this is not just a couple fellas videoing something in the woods but it appears to be in front of a crowd .

Again I guess im missing something as I see the second guy being just as negligent in action .
Little better dressed but ha who ever said being well dressed kept you from hurting yourself or others
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Rice Lareaux
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 34
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Real Name: Ken Dodson

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Concerning the first reply Reply with quote

I watched the YouTube site (or whatever its called) from the first response and hey I know the young man. Met him at a rondy, we call him Flamebeaux (long story). But in his defense, he is quite experienced in shooting blackpowder and a hell of a shot. His background is an Iraqi veteran and well versed historian. I'm not saying that he didn't make a few mistakes, but put me front of camera and I would probably end out shooting myself or the camera person. First I think an experience or non-experienced shooter must realize he is facing the camera for demo and turning to shoot. He lives on many, many of acres of land, so I'm sure he didn't shoot anyone (as of yet).
I personally think he did ok in trying to introduce a great sport and past time to anyone that may be considering blackpowder.
His apparell is made by himself, and is original and PC for his era. Again, Flamebeaux should have had his plug in, and I really didn't notice him loading directly.
Rice Lereaux

I'm also on the west side of the Mississippi but way south of St. Louis.
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Mario
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Joined: 15 May 2007
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Location: Mohawk Valley, NY
Real Name: Mario Doreste

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

captchee wrote:

IE he is rushing the load and being careless as well . To the point his rifle goes off before he is ready to the point the recoil causes him to take a couple steps back .


It looks to me as he pulled the trigger and got an ever so slight hangfire. The priming going off under his chin instead of in front of his face is what sent him reeling. IE: If it doesn't go off, wait 8-10 seconds before pulling the gun down from your shoulder...

Mario

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Adam W
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you who are knocking this young man.........can you please post links to your videos so we we can see how you feel it should be done?

It's pretty easy to sit back and sharpshoot the guy but at least he took the time to come up with this and share it. It wasn't professionally done but maybe he reads this site and next time he'll contact one of you to be his expert advisor.

Adam
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Sieur Phillipe Chenier
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam,

Good to talk to you again. I gave some criticism of this video and also said that we all have made errors on the range or during a demonstration. I also would expect someone to gently correct me when I did so and will refer back to my posts.

Given all that it is not our video or one that we would make that is on display. It is his, he made it and should be open to receive feedback both good and bad. I thank him if he served in Iraq, a place Adam and I know very well.

If he reads the boards then I would ask him to please consider that we are providing feedback. If I saw this on a range at a shoot, I would perhaps say, hey friend please cap your horn etc. I think he was really trying to demonstrate good historical lessons.

When I have made videos like this one, I review them very closely before sending out to friends. I also have an outline of how things are to occur and follow it. If I were to make a instructional video I would have a script and outline and have it done in many takes. Then edited and approved before releasing it. I have never uploaded anything to YouTube but maybe there is a lesson in this for everyone.


Captchee:
As for the hand over the muzzle I was referring to the idea not to make it a habit to rest you hand over the muzzle of your firearm. I see this all the time when people are talking and rest their hands, chin, arm right on the muzzle. Its the business in and I was taught to treat all firearms as loaded so be mindful of the muzzle. It just promotes bad habits. I agree that the second video had errors, however he was trying to recreate the 3 shot per minute and looked to be done at a historic site in the context of a British soldier.


Playing devils advocate:
If "prime and load" worked with paper cartridges and was the military loading procedure for so long, why are there not huge examples of soldiers get injured by exploding firearms when loading? Furthermore if this did happen with any frequency, why didn't the loading procedure change?

Drill does have inherent safety checks built in. In our French drill and inspections, locks were then and are now inspected to ensure half cock stays on half cock. Hammer stalls were and are still used as a safety against the flint falling against bare steel.

I also do not condone "prime and load" be done on the range or in any other context aside from a carefully risk mitigated demonstration.


Last edited by Sieur Phillipe Chenier on Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Medicine Soldier
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Black Hills of SD
Real Name: Mark Kirchgesler

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really had no intentions of knocking the young man doing the video, although I have to admit my first comments probably appeared somewhat snide as I attemted a bit of humor along with my concerns as to some of the things being shown. My apologies to him and all if my intentions were misunderstood. I don't doubt his personal qualities listed or his intentions to share muzzleloading with others and I appreciate his service to our country.

But ....... even a homemade non professional video can certainly be viewed and redone or corrected if some obvious safety problems are being shown. I've seen a number of times that folks on this site have lambasted movies out of hollywood because they aren't period correct, show bad information, or in some cases unsafe things that we in the hobby prefer not to have people see and learn. And in the case of hollywood....they had no intentions of being correct or to teach people, it is to make a movie to make money. So I kind of hope that someone in the hobby would want to provide the best (safest) information he can, especially if he is doing it to teach others how things are done. And I am in no way implying that he did anything without the best intentions.

As far as providing my time as an expert ......... I never claim to be an expert and feel I will never know enough to claim to be one....but I do some educational things regarding this hobby and I certainly hope that while doing it (or just participating in the sport) that if doing anything unsafe that someone will correct me. Maybe the right thing to do would be to have not commented here and just contacted the individual directly, and if so it would be time to be corrected. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure that all of us have violated the same safety issues that are brought up about the video and hopefully we were corrected or corrected ourselves and learned and will never do them again (wishfull thinking in some cases).

Now imagine if you will the new shooter, seeing the video than showing up to your club range ready to be part of the sport we all love. And as he does what he saw on the video the club safety nazi who is maybe not so mild mannered and tactfull when it comes to correcting safety violations jumps right in the middle of this new person's......stuff.......the new person then packing up and leaving, never to have anything to do with those @**^)*$* again.

Again I appreciate what this young man has attempted to do but even more important than others seeing the safety violations is that he never become injured or worse by continueing to do them.

Medicine Soldier
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threepdr
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Real Name: Anonymous

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Naw...that was very safe compared to this... Reply with quote

I don't think the young man's video was as much of a travesty as made out by some. However, this one is. The only redeeming thing is the all girl gun crew.

Remind me not to shoot my cannon with these folks in the UK. The screeching English grandma is just icing on the cake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sekCB3fYBs
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Steve Stanley
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Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Somewhere between 21st century England & 18th century Acadia...........
Real Name: Steve Stanley

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got really worried there as we have a mainly female gun crew for our ECW gun.......Pleased to say no resembalance whatsoever!(And we've a CANNON,not a shotgun with aspirations......)
Steve
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