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sweaters
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Le Loup
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: under-shirts & under-weskits! Reply with quote

Yes this is 19th century as I recall. I also found woolen garments for sailors but this too was late 18th century, Australian settlement.
Le Loup.









[quote="Isaac"][quote="Le Loup"](2) The under-weskit does/did not exist. There is no record of such a garment. There is primary documentation of weskits being worn under shirts against the skin, but this appears to be an ordinary weskit.[/quote]

I believe there is an extant one that belonged to Jefferson... although this may have been just into the 19th century...
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/waltei/history%20files/clothing/jeffersonunderwaistcoatclosed.jpg[/img]

These are often called camisoles. In France, they were called [i]camisoles [/i]or [i]gilets[/i]. Furetiere, in 1690 describes them as follows “[of a camisole]…it is made with or without sleeves; this last one is called a gilet… The camisole, otherwise gilet, is worn next to the skin or over the shirt… It can be with or without sleeves, & is cut much like a waiscoat with no skirts or tabs; the back is almost straight…”[/quote]
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Isaac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Camisoles and gilets are commonly seen on post-mortem lists, inventories, sales records, military lists, and etc. And there is the Furetiere quote I gave. The certainly seem common for New France. For the English colonies, I have been told they are common and have seen some of the documentation others have given, but I did not pay much attention as I generally portray French. This all said, these were fabric... NOT knit.

Isaac

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Mario
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: under-shirts & under-weskits! Reply with quote

Le Loup wrote:

(2) The under-weskit does/did not exist. There is no record of such a garment.


There is record of the garment, just not that name. Flannel waistcoats worn under jackets/coats are quite common in runaway ads.

"and carried with him a plad Kersey double Breasted Coat, a striped Flannel and a short white Flannel Wastecoat, "

"Had on, when he went away, a brown Pea Jacket, a white Flannel Wastecoat ty'd with Strings"

"had on and took with him, a brown bearskin coat, blue cloth waistcoat and breeches, striped flannel waistcoat,"

Mario

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WhiteBlanket
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac wrote:
I have seen a few rare reference to ganseys, but am still trying to figure them, and not in regards to what is happening with what most of us do here. IW


'Geansaí" ( pronounced "gansey") is Irish for sweater or jumper. Derived from the sweaters of the Gurnsey islands. Guernseymen served as privateers from the 1600's on. Look for a nautical connection.
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Isaac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhiteBlanket wrote:
Isaac wrote:
I have seen a few rare reference to ganseys, but am still trying to figure them, and not in regards to what is happening with what most of us do here. IW


'Geansaí" ( pronounced "gansey") is Irish for sweater or jumper. Derived from the sweaters of the Gurnsey islands. Guernseymen served as privateers from the 1600's on. Look for a nautical connection.


Yes.. these and most "sweaters" seem to be connected to sailors and fisherman in Northern Europe. There were a lot of Faroese ones (and Icelandic) exported in the 17th century, but to who and where is a big question.

IW

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Art Vandelay
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread...I'm still trying to research a guernsey frock for my Napoleonic Wars RN impression, but I just don't know when they became regulated in the navy.

Art-who loves sweaters; 18th cent,19th cent, or otherwise
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Steve Stanley
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art Vandelay wrote:
Very interesting thread...I'm still trying to research a guernsey frock for my Napoleonic Wars RN impression, but I just don't know when they became regulated in the navy.

Art-who loves sweaters; 18th cent,19th cent, or otherwise


For the navy,as a whole,nothing's regulated before 1857...For individual ships.....HMS Pyraeus(?) has 'frocks' issued in 1814....And Dighton's painting of Trafalgar shows a scooped-neck,long-sleeved 'jumper' in white with thin blue horizontal stripes..........
Steve
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Art Vandelay
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,
Poor choice of words on my part. I knew about the lack of universal regs before '57. I just meant in fairly common use. Oops. Two thoughts converged into one sentence...

Anyways, that jumper in Dighton's painting, do we know that it is wool knit like we would think of a "sweater" today, or was it a lighter cotton material? Also, I may be TOTALLY wrong, but I thought I remembered that there was a reason to doubt the credibility of that painting. I see that it was made in 1825, so I could be wrong...
Art
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Steve Stanley
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The painting is awkward...Yes,it's later,but he did a LOT of research,& it's generally accepted as a reliable source.....Certainly the uniformed figures all match the regulations/other sources...On the possibility of the 'jumper' being some other material....possible,but I can't think of other examples..and references to 'jumpers' increase as you near the 1820's.....I think the jury would record the marvellous Scots verdict....'Not Proven'!
Steve
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trodgers
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw Barry McPherson wearing what appeared to be a 'fishermans sweater' at Mississinewa 1812 this fall. I should have asked him about it.

Tom

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stickbow
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredging this up because of a thread elsewhere, and oversimplifying:

The consensus of the documentation/opinion on this is that Guernsey frocks/Sailors "jumpers" were in use (as outerwear) in the late 18th/early 19th century; that there is not any/much documentation for their use/ownership by landlubbers in North America during this same time.

So, if an event is multi-era (i.e., not a reenactment, but a timeline or just "historical people wandering around talking to the public" sort of thing) it might make sense to have a late 18th/early 19th c. sailor or navy impression wearing one, but not your average "middlin' sort" or "poor farmer/woodsrunner/etc".

Am I summarizing correctly?
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Isaac
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stickbow wrote:
Dredging this up because of a thread elsewhere, and oversimplifying:

The consensus of the documentation/opinion on this is that Guernsey frocks/Sailors "jumpers" were in use (as outerwear) in the late 18th/early 19th century; that there is not any/much documentation for their use/ownership by landlubbers in North America during this same time.

So, if an event is multi-era (i.e., not a reenactment, but a timeline or just "historical people wandering around talking to the public" sort of thing) it might make sense to have a late 18th/early 19th c. sailor or navy impression wearing one, but not your average "middlin' sort" or "poor farmer/woodsrunner/etc".

Am I summarizing correctly?


Yup... from what we see in actual research that has been done thus far, documentation points to the above as a good/simple summary of the situation.

Isaac

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David A. Schmid
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonder what is warmer..knit or fabric? that might hold the key to the understanding of this question of sweaters.
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Isaac
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David A. Schmid wrote:
wonder what is warmer..knit or fabric? that might hold the key to the understanding of this question of sweaters.


DEPENDS... size of knit, gauge, wool used, fulled or not.... with fabric: weave, fulled or not, yarn/thread size used and etc.

Essentially, I think it could be a wash (for a straight knit... ribbed, cabled, or etc way change this) as knitting is essentially a way of "weaving" yarn together to make a "fabric."

Isaac

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Fitzhugh Williams
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rememer this plate done by Francis Back in 1983? What is it that the man with the oar is wearing?

(much easier to see in the actual print)


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